Playtest Results: Skeleton Damage Box increase

[lazyj]

Please only vote on this poll once you have completed a game with the proposed change in effect:

Undead Faction: Skeleton Horde and Skeleton Spearmen each add 1 Green and 1 Yellow damage box. Point costs remain unchanged.

Please vote only after you play, and share your experiences in the replies. There are many other suggestions on what to do about these two units, but this thread will focus instead on the most "officially" endorsed option. We can create other polls for the other options as necessary - let's keep this one reserved for this suggestion only.

For further information on this issue (and a very long discussion) please see http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,506.0.html

[gull2112]

I would love to play this, if only I could get a hold of you!

[ZiNOS]

Maybe you should propose a balnced 2000 pts build that will include a lot of sceletons and we can play against it?

[Grendel]

Jaime and I play tested one extra green and one extra yellow box against Dwarves.  I agree that as is, they are too weak, but 2 extra health on a unit that will never take a moral check proved to be too much.  I think having them cause fear would be a better compromise.  2 boxes was too much, and I don't think that one would be right either.  I mean, skeletons are supposed to be fragile.  With the new fear rules that even if you pass the check you still loose a die, I think this would work well for them.  Anyone want to try play testing this?

[gull2112]

Although I haven't playtested the different number of boxes, I really like the alternative of having them cause fear because it doesn't require a change on  the cards, just a rules change, and a pretty simple one at that. The bonus being that if you had a bunch of skeletons (like a horde of them maybe ), you could cause enough fear checks to actually make fear an issue.

[RushAss]

I still don't like the idea of making skeletons fearsome.  Under the 3.0 rules your opponent is guaranteed to at least fight at (-1) -0/-0 and may even have to fight at (-1) -1/-1.  And aside from gameplay, I still don't see the logic of  making them fearsome as there are plenty of other units out there that are not fearsome that I'd be a heck of a lot more frightened of facing than a Skeleton Horde.  Just sayin'   

[gull2112]

but skeletons are icky and downright unnatural! The auto (-1)-0-0 is because they just give you the willies. I will have to playtest them before I judge it, however. I think making them fearsome, basically a cheap fear causing unit, would be a clever and simple way to make them more likely to be included. You could even build a fear themed army, not necessarily a sure thing, but a viable tactic.

[gull2112]

Also, skeletons are magical creations. Maybe the fear comes from the spell used to animate them. Fear cannot be solely based on the awesomeness of the opponent as then you might as well say something like "any combatant suffers fear if opponent costs more than 100 points more, or terror if 200 points more,"...actually, the more I think about it, the more certain I am that fear is a magically created effect.

[RushAss]

While I understand the logic of fearsomeness in Skeletons, I have 1 gamey and 2 non-gamey arguments against it.

Gamey argument - If you give the Skeleton Horde the fearsome attribute, you'd also have to give the Skele Spears, Cavalry, and Bowmen(!) the fearsome attribute.  So now you have 8 out of the 12 Undead units being fearsome.  Might as well make the entire faction fearsome at that point.

Non-gamey argument 1 - Your soldiers already know that they are facing an army of the dead as soon as your general tells them that they are going to march out there and face the forces of the Necromancer.  It's a given.  Even if these soldiers have never faced Undead opponents before, I'd bet that their initial reaction would be something along the lines of "Fighting Skelis is freaky, but I'm sure darned happy that we're not fighting that Giant thing way over there that's been chucking boulders at our Spearmen.  And it's a heckuva lot better than facing off against that over sized blob of guts, gore, heads, and limbs about 50 paces down yonder."

Non-gamey argument 2 - I can think of quite a few units off the top of my head without the fearsome attribute that would probably be more frightening for your typical solder to face than a unit of Skeletons.  Tell me if you'd agree that the guys listed below would be more likely to cause you to poop yourself if you saw them charging right at you on a battlefield:

Lizardman Tyrants (either variety) - 7 foot tall, 300 pound armored reptiles
Lizardman Raptor Pack - Ever see Jurassic Park?
Any Heavy Cavalry - Seriously, this is almost the equivalent of being a foot soldier in WWI and seeing a tank bearing down on you.
Centaurs - See above, but they are also throwing stuff at you as they charge!  Plus you must confess that Centaurs are pretty freaky by nature.
Ravenwood Bear Pack - Seriously, are skeletons scarier than this?  I thought not.
Any kind of Elder Blade Wielding High Elven Unit - OK, maybe not scarier than Skeletons.  But pretty close I'd bet.

Edit: Besides, the 3 men of Willowdale where able to survive the dungeons of the Necromancer 

[gornhorror]

I'm sorry....I would think the brownies would evoke the most fear. 

[gull2112]

I totally understand where you are coming from, which is why I say it is more than just the units in and of themselves, something in the magic of creating them must cause fear, if you were designing the ritual for "create Undead" you would have to put a "cause fear" incantation into the mix. So the fearsome effect is not specifically tied to their intrinsic scariness, it is an exogenous effect of the magic that moves them.

The three men of Willowdale were not playing battleground or their fates may have been different. Maybe we can continue this discussion using lyrical re-interpretations. I'm thinking of doing one based on "No one at the bridge" part lll of "The Fountain of Lamneth."

[Mexico]

First playtest report is up: http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,1327.0.html

[RushAss]

I'm sorry....I would think the brownies would evoke the most fear. 

Nah, they invoke the "WTF are those guys?!?!" attribute

Nifty playtest report there Mexico!  And I also need to check out the one Mike posted as well.  Lots of good work, people!

[lazyj]

As Mike convinced me to play Grendal's thoughts with Fear last night, I will be posting a new topic for that Poll and add my vote there.

Edit: New Poll http://yourmovegames.com/forum/index.php/topic,1331.0.html